Epic Perfect World

Class balance input

Offline Groovy

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Hello everyone


The recent veno pet issue seems to have sparked a discussion about general game balance. Since the other thread turned into QQ fest I've decided to start a new thread. Here we can share our point of view in polite manner to give some input for GMs in regards of class balance. Share your observations and suggest reasonable adjustments.



Ok, here's what I wanted to share with you:

Wizards and genie Spark: In PWI genies were balanced around having lvl 105 max, so had way worse stats. Wizard using Spark in PWI had to sacrifice potential of using defensive genie skills for next 20-30 seconds. This is not an issue here, where genies have 150 max lvl and great recharge rate.
My suggestion is to increase the energy cost of Spark by about half (from 62 to ~100) and its cooldown up to 1 minute from 40 seconds (to match the cd of Faith).
This way Wizards will still have their deadly combo available but will have to be more careful *when* they want to use it, rather than spamming it whenever possible.

Archer's -channeling blessing: Cut the -channel it grants by half or remove it altogether. I fail to see why Archer should get that blessing in the first place, they are already great at killing arcane classes, with that blessing combined with high crit chance and accuracy they get equally good at killing HA and LA classes. It's extremely hard to keep up to Archer as a HA melee (barb, BM, Seeker) seeing how EA got highest range in game, 2 antistuns, 2 leaps, good amount of evasion. Giving them high magic damage output (not affected by close range reduction, like it's with physical dmg) is overkill.
There's a reason why server has ~3x more active archers than HA classes combined. They are too universal.

Ironguard potion: Probably my most controversial suggestion here. I feel that 12 seconds immortality is a bit too long, seeing how it gives protection from all kinds of crowd control skills as well. Combined with Absolute Domain it gives 17 seconds of time where you can't be interrupted in any way by enemy. That's way too long, it slows the pace of all fights, lowers the skillcap for all classes and makes the gameplay of pure support classes more frustrating (BMs can't stun you, veno can't purge, friendly cleric doesn't have to bother healing you, etc.). I see 2 options how to change it:
- make Ironguard pot silence and freeze you upon use instead of stunning: it would shift the usage of this potion to defence, even after using antistun you'd still be silenced so unable to attack, making you use this potion to get out of dangerous situations and reposition yourself on battlefield rather than turning you into 1-man-army-god-of-war-incarnation for 12 seconds
- or make the immortality last shorter time, something like 9 seconds. It will keep both offensive and defensive utility of potion as it is now but should increase the tempo of mass fights, making them shorter and more intense.



Feel free to comment on my suggestions and post your own.


Last Edit: Mar 29, 2013, 11:39 am by Groovy
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Offline Tavern

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I agree with everything but the archers blessing and ironguard.

dickroman

Genie spsrk again... There is also fire protecton, makes u immune to any fire dmg

Offline Resolve

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i believe that the server is already as balanced as its going to get i do agree some things are not and that there are classes that got nurfed but its for the good of the whole not the good of the few nice suggestions but i just dont think anything should be changed anymore


We're nothing like God. Not only do we have limited powers, but sometimes we're driven to become the devil himself.

Offline Groovy

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Genie spsrk again... There is also fire protecton, makes u immune to any fire dmg
What still doesn't adress the fact that Spark is low risk - high reward type of genie skill. Forcing others to sacrifice one of genie slots for the sole purpose of countering cheap spammable skill usable only by one class is just one more signal that something is wrong here.
Also notice that I don't ask for removal of the skill, or nerf the amount it debuffs. I'm just asking for it to be less spammable.

i believe that the server is already as balanced as its going to get i do agree some things are not and that there are classes that got nurfed but its for the good of the whole not the good of the few nice suggestions but i just dont think anything should be changed anymore
While I believe that GMs here do really, really great work in balancing (in my opinion it's the most balanced version of PW, way better than any other private server or official version), I don't believe we reached the "perfect spot" yet. GMs aren't allowed to play their own regular chars now, so I'm sure that the place where players share their gameplay experience with them will be beneficial for both sides: GMs will have easier time changing things to be more enjoyable, we will have more fun in-game.

We're here to help GMs make some adjustments, not bash them. It's hard to balance such a complex game so every little help counts.
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2013, 12:13 pm by Groovy
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Offline ᗗ ᗁ ᕨ ᖱ

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nerf sin's tidal protaction its so fucking homo .. they never get stunned .. or sealed or debuffed >_>
I don't care what you think about me, cause i don't think about you at all _!_

Offline Savn

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nerf sin's tidal protaction  +10000000000000000000000 :P

Offline Resolve

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What still doesn't adress the fact that Spark is low risk - high reward type of genie skill. Forcing others to sacrifice one of genie slots for the sole purpose of countering cheap spammable skill usable only by one class is just one more signal that something is wrong here.
Also notice that I don't ask for removal of the skill, or nerf the amount it debuffs. I'm just asking for it to be less spammable.
While I believe that GMs here do really, really great work in balancing (in my opinion it's the most balanced version of PW, way better than any other private server or official version), I don't believe we reached the "perfect spot" yet. GMs aren't allowed to play their own regular chars now, so I'm sure that the place where players share their gameplay experience with them will be beneficial for both sides: GMs will have easier time changing things to be more enjoyable, we will have more fun in-game.

We're here to help GMs make some adjustments, not bash them. It's hard to balance such a complex game so every little help counts.

The thing is this game was never balanced the point is to overcome the in balance you have to have some sort of challenge they "perfect spot" which you mention is a lie there wont  ever be one because there will always be something to complain about whether its nerf sins tidal or nerf mystic heal i do hear your points and i agree with you on some things but some of the things you mention to nerf are vital for that class to be good


We're nothing like God. Not only do we have limited powers, but sometimes we're driven to become the devil himself.

Offline geriatrix

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Every class has it's nemesis.

The point is not to balance every class against every other.

The point is to balance the "food circle".
(Simple food chain would have top and bottom,
here it's looped.)

If you are going to PK, you can't expect to be safe.
You already can a bit easier kill some classes, some
other can kill you also a bit easier, and it's normal.

As we can all see, no class can kill any other class every time.
Just a player with some more personal skill can move
number of victories against speciffic class from 60% to 65-70%
(or against nemesis class from 40% to 45%).

But that's not balance problem. The one who learns his
class of choice better, deserves to win few more times.
(And who made better choice to match his own playstyle.)

You can try to convince yourself that you are that one,
and blame "imbalance", "lag", "cat jumped on keyboard",
but if you lose more, then you surely arent.

kekeke :)
"Don't think about winning every battle in your life.
Think only about winning the current one."

But reconsider price. You might decide to lose.

Offline Resolve

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Every class has it's nemesis.

The point is not to balance every class against every other.

The point is to balance the "food circle".
(Simple food chain would have top and bottom,
here it's looped.)

If you are going to PK, you can't expect to be safe.
You already can a bit easier kill some classes, some
other can kill you also a bit easier, and it's normal.

As we can all see, no class can kill any other class every time.
Just a player with some more personal skill can move
number of victories against speciffic class from 60% to 65-70%
(or against nemesis class from 40% to 45%).

But that's not balance problem. The one who learns his
class of choice better, deserves to win few more times.
(And who made better choice to match his own playstyle.)

You can try to convince yourself that you are that one,
and blame "imbalance", "lag", "cat jumped on keyboard",
but if you lose more, then you surely arent.

kekeke :)

+1 im glad someone gets it and you should just take away our tidal completely :)


We're nothing like God. Not only do we have limited powers, but sometimes we're driven to become the devil himself.

Offline WorldBosh

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Wizards and genie Spark: In PWI genies were balanced around having lvl 105 max, so had way worse stats. Wizard using Spark in PWI had to sacrifice potential of using defensive genie skills for next 20-30 seconds. This is not an issue here, where genies have 150 max lvl and great recharge rate.
My suggestion is to increase the energy cost of Spark by about half (from 62 to ~100) and its cooldown up to 1 minute from 40 seconds (to match the cd of Faith).
This way Wizards will still have their deadly combo available but will have to be more careful *when* they want to use it, rather than spamming it whenever possible.

^Agree with this wholeheartedly.

Archer's -channeling blessing: Cut the -channel it grants by half or remove it altogether. I fail to see why Archer should get that blessing in the first place, they are already great at killing arcane classes, with that blessing combined with high crit chance and accuracy they get equally good at killing HA and LA classes. It's extremely hard to keep up to Archer as a HA melee (barb, BM, Seeker) seeing how EA got highest range in game, 2 antistuns, 2 leaps, good amount of evasion. Giving them high magic damage output (not affected by close range reduction, like it's with physical dmg) is overkill.
There's a reason why server has ~3x more active archers than HA classes combined. They are too universal.

^Somewhat agree with this. Back in 08', charmed battles between archers and barbs did not end until someone got a crit chain of sorts, or the barb's arma hit (which, for obvious reasons, didn't always end the battle and left the kitty vulnerable). Of course, this isn't an Age of Spirits server, but to say that none of the heavies are able to keep up with archers is kind of ridiculous. On my BM (don't have reckless rush or blade hurl yet) I have NO problem keeping up with archers, and I'm pretty sure a good seeker wouldn't have any problem keeping up with an archer as well. Without the -chan blessing, archers would be too easy to interrupt and they would slowly shift into a support DPS class rather than a class that can at least take one person on at a time.

Ironguard potion: Probably my most controversial suggestion here. I feel that 12 seconds immortality is a bit too long, seeing how it gives protection from all kinds of crowd control skills as well. Combined with Absolute Domain it gives 17 seconds of time where you can't be interrupted in any way by enemy. That's way too long, it slows the pace of all fights, lowers the skillcap for all classes and makes the gameplay of pure support classes more frustrating (BMs can't stun you, veno can't purge, friendly cleric doesn't have to bother healing you, etc.). I see 2 options how to change it:
- make Ironguard pot silence and freeze you upon use instead of stunning: it would shift the usage of this potion to defence, even after using antistun you'd still be silenced so unable to attack, making you use this potion to get out of dangerous situations and reposition yourself on battlefield rather than turning you into 1-man-army-god-of-war-incarnation for 12 seconds
- or make the immortality last shorter time, something like 9 seconds. It will keep both offensive and defensive utility of potion as it is now but should increase the tempo of mass fights, making them shorter and more intense.

^Agree with this wholeheartedly, as well. These pots are damned annoying lol.

Something I'd like all these balance discussion threads to address is the amount of "auto-proc" buffs floating around in the game. Things like purify, SoStunning/Silence, arcane defense, tidal, etc, turn a class into more of a pain than they should be. Of course, wizards and psychics aren't IMPOSSIBLE to kill, but a wizard or psychic that know what they're doing is ridiculously hard to deal with, especially since they can end most fights by pressing 1-2-3-4. I understand that psychics have undergone some nerfing, but needing to use will surge to reliably kill a psychic is ridiculous. I also know that getting purify on any weapon is extremely hard, but again, totally imbalanced. I'm also not against wizards getting another leap that purifies debuffs, hell archers and BMs now have a million and one ways to close and create distances between their targets, but I AM against the leap being an auto-proc. I'm not going to whine about auto-proc buffs making the game require less skill this or less skill that, but everyone will agree that it makes the game less fun. Wizards used to be a class that, in mass PvP, was biggest killer, but always had to hide behind team mates to drop their big bombs on enemy groups. Now, wizards can do all of that and more without the need to hide behind anything.

Offline BamBam

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It doesn't matter what you nerf or how balanced you think the game is or will be, somebody will always QQ about something. If gm's nerfed everything people complain about we would be running around with water gear, no genies, all lvl 1 skills, veno's would have no pets, lets take away all those op class buffs while were at it.... actually scratch that.. it would still be unbalanced. Lets just run around wacking each other with sticks and ranged classes can throw rocks. pretty sure there would be no players around to complain at that point...

dickroman

What still doesn't adress the fact that Spark is low risk - high reward type of genie skill. Forcing others to sacrifice one of genie slots for the sole purpose of countering cheap spammable skill usable only by one class is just one more signal that something is wrong here.
Also notice that I don't ask for removal of the skill, or nerf the amount it debuffs. I'm just asking for it to be less spammable.
While I believe that GMs here do really, really great work in balancing (in my opinion it's the most balanced version of PW, way better than any other private server or official version), I don't believe we reached the "perfect spot" yet. GMs aren't allowed to play their own regular chars now, so I'm sure that the place where players share their gameplay experience with them will be beneficial for both sides: GMs will have easier time changing things to be more enjoyable, we will have more fun in-game.

We're here to help GMs make some adjustments, not bash them. It's hard to balance such a complex game so every little help counts.

either u waste 1 slot to def or watch urself getting killed, thats how it is
and bout op class... There is no op class, threr r only whiners who cry bout balance. This server is well balanced and dont need any nerfing, cept if u want that as u hit some else they get perma stun till u kill them
 what goes to sin tidal protection, nothing to say, sin is already squishy onecr u break their stunlpck and tp is their only def, if u nerf it is same as killing afk person.
Maybe u should go pk instead if complaining on forums, and by that i mean all the "server needs to nurfe this and that"
K now spit on me guys, im done

Offline Elly

  • Agony awaits
1.4 can't be balanced no matter how hard you try. To get balance, each class would have even odds in 1v1 without genies. Try 1v1ing on this server without genies. Know what would happen? You would die in one stun from sins/blademasters.

I, however, agree with your third suggestion. Abuse of ironguards on this server is ridiculous. I don't think you'll find a serious pker around here that doesn't use fortify/faith/AD/antistun + Ironguard combo.
Your first suggestion is pointless though, they won't change anything about spark seeing 99.8% of community uses it here (Anyone who uses this skill is a total idiot that has no knowledge on how to play wizard in my book).
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2013, 02:26 pm by Elly

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Offline Eralis

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I agree with some of the people that already wrote here.
In my opinion the game shouldn't be changed anymore, because the classes are very well balanced already, and I don't believe that it could get much better.
If a player has skills and knows how to play his/her class, then he'll be able to kill most of his opponents. Each class has its weaknesses and strengths.
I learned it on my own skin, that each class can win against any other class if played well.
That's why in my opinion we should stop asking to nerf here and nerf there, because every class is good as it is..

If you think that the class you're playing is underpowered and believe that mystic, sin, wizzy, whatever other class is OP compared to yours, then why don't you just change class and start playing one that in your opinion is OP?

See you all in game and have fun ^^

Era~