Venomancer HA change suggestion.

[Feone]

After reading some of the recent HA veno suggestions I decided to do some testing of this build.

The gear I used:
Full dragon heavy armor.
Physical attack/dex based rings.
Dragon as well as r8r atklvl pataka.
Elemental dragon ornaments.
Supreme robe: dominance.
Dex/crit/int tome.

Resulting stats and build:


Results of testing:

I fought one or more people from each class using this build and tried some limited mass pk as well.

1 on1 results:
Cleric:
While being one of the easier classes to harm (purge is very effective and clerics and genie can counter most of their disables) it is still mostly a no-win scenario. It takes timing and a combo to get past their defenses and to kill quick enough preventing them from just healing back up. At the same time it doesn't take much for the cleric to throw a magic defense debuff and drop the veno with only a few attacks (several 2shots while testing.)

Archer:
Another class that can be killed by this build, however only if they screw up badly. Archers can easily kite and disabled the veno followed by a 2shot lightning combo. r8r archer magic hits averaged about 20k a hit during testing. If the archer forgets to kite, use genie, stun or put up a defense skill the DPS is sufficient to take them out in about 7-8 seconds after a charmtick.

Barbarian:
Defense/vit barb can go afk against this build without worrying about a death. Str builds can get killed however they hurt the veno far more than the veno hurts the barb.

Venomancer (Arcane):
If the AA veno is cought in human form the HA's attacks hurt however using foxform it's not nearly as bad. The AA venomancer can drop the HA one far easier than the other way around as the magic attacks easily hit 10-15k unsparked noncrit.

Blademaster:
Pretty much pointless to try and kill a blademaster using this build. Unless the bm/wr has a bad case of amnesia and doesn't  remember how to kite or stun or self-buff the veno wont get past it's defenses. The veno is definitely not an easy kill but the damage simply isn't threatning, not even on nightscream where bramble works.

Wizard:
Results of test fights:
fight 1: veno 1shot.
fight 2: veno managed to bite wizard, wizard got mad and 1shot veno after.
fight 3: veno 2shot.
fight 4: veno ticked arcane defense, followed by being 2shot.
Don't even bother. The hits hurt enough to kill the wizard if they don't fight back but they can extremely easily kite and kill the veno, the hits I took during testing ranged from 10 to 90k.

Mystic:
No point in even trying, there are not enough controll skills to prevent the mystic from hitting their "refill hp" button. Mystic magic attacks hurt badly.

Seeker:
Extremely hard to get past defenses and using debuffs is risky due to quid pro quo. Veno is easily dropped by a magic combo.

Psychic:
One of the few classes that can actually be killed, though unlikely. A black voodoo psy is hurt quite badly by the physical attacks but their soul of silence and stunning skills make it very hard for the veno to attack. Pretty much a spark and kill fast or get owned scenario.

Assassin:
Now, this is the one class that definitely does not like this veno build, provided you're on nightscream. Melee hurts the sin decently and the high defenses make it hard to kill the veno however the sin can easily stun and prevent death, at least untill tidal runs out. It takes a combo for the sin to take out the veno but if the sin knows how to stun they are unlikely to lose. If the veno is on nightscream the sin should probably just cry and run away, bramble hurts the sin about as much as the attacks hurt the veno (with sage bramble, 50%).

Mass pk:
Not particularly usefull, melee attacks don't really hurt but the first arcane that targets the veno will wipe it in seconds.


An arcane veno can kill far easier and survive better than this build. Despite the increased HP and Pdef the lack of magic defense just makes it a very easy kill. As it is currently this build brings a lot of disadvantages and close to no positive aspects. In my opinion this is a pitty, half the venomancers skills are based around melee and debuffs making it uniquely suitable to add a gameplay style that none of the other classes has.

Suggestion:
DPH melee veno.

Suggested changes:

Weapon:

Pataka  (Changing the current dragon pataka)
Lv. 18
Attack Rate (Atks/sec) 1.0 (instead of 1.25)
Range 4.50
Physical attack 3597-5145 (as it is currently)
Magic attack 3373-5172 (as it is currently)
Requisite class: Venomancer
Requisite Lv. 150
Strength required: 600 (instead of 420).

God of Frenzy (added)
Channeling -30% (instead of -10%).
Accuracy +50%
Criticalhitrate +4%
Strength +25
Magic +25

Ring:
Re-adding the venomancer-only dragon ring versions.

Physical attack+187
Refines towards magic defense.

Accuracy +50%
Critrate +5%
Dexterity +20
Channeling -10%
Accuracy +800

Strengths:
High-hitting debuff attack combos, biting arcanes.
Weaknesses:
Magic, controll skills.

This combination would allow for fairly fast channeling (20% rings, 30-42% wep (stones included),  12% ornaments, possible 9% cape/tome) To prevent this from being abused by magic users the strength requirement is extremely high leaving little to no magic attack. The increased magic defense from the rings would make the current defenses slightly better (taking constant 10-30k's  is too much) but still low enough to be very vulnerable to magic. This class also has limitted options to prevent being stunned etc and doesn't have a lot of stuns/seals either so it's a far different creature than say  a DPH sin.  It gives the build enough damage to seriously hurt light/arcane armored players but also makes it very vulnerable to counter attacks and disables.

In my opinion this combination fits very well with the kind of melee skills venos have. These skills are a combination of purely debuffing and actual attacks making combo attacks a requirement. I chose the suggested stats based on the testing I did of the build as well as looking at the stats of the average dragon and r8r players of every class.


Please limit replies to constructive criticism only.
GM's please remove the usual topic-derailing troll replies that the forums are spammed with lately.

[dorothyerika]

So much words to read,nice guid though  :3 ♥

[Feone]

I like to test it thoroughly before making suggestions. 

[Cocor3]

Blademaster:
Pretty much pointless to try and kill a blademaster using this build. Unless the bm/wr has a bad case of amnesia and doesn't  remember how to kite or stun or self-buff the veno wont get past it's defenses. The veno is definitely not an easy kill but the damage simply isn't threatning, not even on nightscream where bramble works.



now try this > ○Ironwood Scarab      
Range 27.0 meters
Mana 175.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 8.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instrument

Required Cultivation Aware of the Void
Throw a splinted bug at the enemy, dealing Wood damage
equal to base magic damage, 300% of weapon damage, and 2770.0.

Demon version only has a 20% chance of success,
but will instead reduce Physical Defense to 0.
Costs 25 Chi

then amp >1 shot with a  normal ...lame weapon hit

[Cocor3]

too bad you are sage:) haha better go AA for sage veno

[Feone]

Don't forget armor still gives a decent base physical damage taken reduction. The 20% is also unlikely to happen. A BM can very, very easily stun the veno as soon as it goes human form to cast (seeing as casting anything takes a few seconds) and kill it while they lose the large pdef boost from foxform.  In order to do the combo you suggest you would first have to switch to human form meaning you're stuck out of foxform for at least 6 seconds, you can bridge part of this by stunning, followed by ironwood. Casting amp also takes 1.5-3 seconds on this build.

Basically the bm has about 8-10 seconds to see it coming before you start dealing any damage, if 10 seconds isn't enough to kite or stun you are dealing with an extremely incompetent BM.

Note it's definitely not impossible to kill things on this build, the base damage on the pataka is fine. It's just that magic classes can drop the veno in a few hits and physical classes can easily use their stuns to prevent dieing/kill the veno.


Oh, I'm generally AA cocor, I switched to HA to test stats etc.

[Nerlda]

too bad you are sage:) haha better go AA for sage veno

Sage is best for HA and HA/LA built you get the pedef boost from sage fox form and sage male mastery gives 200% damage increase.  also Sage purge is a aoe skill, Sage Amp is better then Demon,
Bramble Guard last twice as long so you don't need to leave fox form in to cast it again ,Summer Sprint removes negative effects. al those skill makes Sage veno allot better as HA

[Lovelymae]

I tried this build before. I'm a Demon Veno HA/LA build with 2.0 aps base. I can kill all magic base class and Archer/Sin with fox form and amplify damage, as for Heavy class i kill em with Ironwood Scarab 20% chance 0def and 3-4hits GG  . But i change to AA class now, this build is getting boring and in mass pk its sucks aoe magic class damage a lot. Well i like the suggestion of yours the GOF and goodluck on that. Looking forward to see that r8 pataka with gof, i love to try em. And one thing HA/LA type is best for Demon, with Sage you can't kill Heavy class.
IGN: Lovelymae

[Nerlda]

I tried this build before. I'm a Demon Veno HA/LA build with 2.0 aps base. I can kill all magic base class and Archer/Sin with fox form and amplify damage, as for Heavy class i kill em with Ironwood Scarab 20% chance 0def and 3-4hits GG  . But i change to AA class now, this build is getting boring and in mass pk its sucks aoe magic class damage a lot. Well i like the suggestion of yours the GOF and goodluck on that. Looking forward to see that r8 pataka with gof, i love to try em. And one thing HA/LA type is best for Demon, with Sage you can't kill Heavy class.
IGN: Lovelymae

so demon HA venos are best just bc of the Scarab 20% chance 0def ? i don't believe in luck and 20% is a damn shitty % ,Sage version increases physical defense reduction to 40% for 20 seconds. and i don't need a "magic meatball" to tell me if it gone work or not, so now tell me what other super skill you have as Demon HA/LA fox

[Feone]

Ive been pking in this build for 2 days now, I have made a genie specifically for it as well.

While I am not demon and can't say how effective ironwood is (the 20% proc that is) I do know that I am at a severe disadvantage against most people. This doesn't make it impossible to score kills but any good player will wipe the floor with me in this current build.  As stated above there are some advantages to being sage as well as some things demon is better at. I'm not going to go into sage vs demon venomancer as this is a whole different subject, both have good adds for melee as well as arcane so either works.


The effective skills I use a lot are:

Stunning blow (fox form only, melee)
Channel 0.7 sec, cast 0.5 sec, cooldown 15 sec
Base physical damage 3641, immobilises for 8 seconds, costs 1 spark.
Sage: 25% chance to cast without consuming chi.
Demon: 50% chance to stun enemy for 3 seconds.


Fossilized Curse (100 skill) fox form, 10 meter range. (description is ***ed up so ill just type what I know it does)
 channel 2, cast 1.3, 10 minute cooldown
buffs the target for pdef/mdef, rougly cleric buff strength from what I can tell.
Also reduces their attackrate by a lot (100% according to description) and their accuracy by...enough to make sins miss arcane build venos nonstop.  (not mention in description) Appearently also reduces critical hit rate by 300%, but this may be that accuracy one, not like they hit much anyway with this on.


Arcane antimony (100 skill, human form)  27 meter range
Channel 3, cast 1, cooldown 10 minutes.
Reduces target speed by 70% and channel by 90%, description doesnt show duration but I believe its about 10-15 seconds.
Costs 1 spark.

Befuddling Mist (foxform, melee)
0.7 channel, 0.5 cast, cooldown 3 seconds.

Short range aoe for base physical damage +2281 and reduces targets accuracy by 70% for 8 seconds. Aoe range isn't mentioned but it seems to be a frontal spray for about 3-5 meters or around the veno for about the same.
Sage: damage +800
Demon: decrease enemy speed by 30% for 3 seconds.

Fox Wallop (melee, foxform)
channel 0.7, cast 0.5, cooldown 3.

Base physical damage + 3059, reduces target channel and cast speed by 35% for 3 seconds, costs 20 chi.
Sage: 50% chance to not cost chi.
Demon: 20% chance to make all hits critical for 5 seconds.


Not the most usefull one but it hits a bit harder than a regular attack and heals a little.
Leach (melee, foxform)
0.6 channel, 1.1 cast 6 cooldown
Deals base physical damage + 3505
Sage: 100% chance to steal 600 hp.
Demon: 80% chance to steal 800 hp.


Arcane skills usable for this build

Parasitic Nova
Range 27m
channel 3, cast 1.7, cooldown 30
hits everything within 12 meters around target, damage negligible in this build.
67% chance to immobilise and seal for 8 seconds.

Sage: 50% chance to only cost 1 spark.
Demon: targets take 30% more damage (Curse debuff, same as HF).



Lucky Scarab
Range 27m
channel 1.5, cast 0.8, cooldown 12
Almost no damage in this build. (mag atk based)
95% chance to stun the target for 2 seconds.

Sage: stun lasts 1 second longer
Demon: cooldown 2 seconds shorter.


Ironwood Scarab:
Range 27m
Channel 1.5, cast 0.8, cooldown 9.
Low damage in this build. (magic based)
Reduces enemy physical defense by 40% for 10 seconds.

Sage: defense reduction lasts 20 seconds.
Demon: Only 20% chance of success but will reduce enemy defense to 0.




Useless skills (or mostly useless)

Malefic Crush  (foxform melee)
2 channel, 1.1 cast, 30 second cooldown
costs 2 sparks
hits everything in an 8 m radius for base damage + 7580 & drains 1800 mana on targets over 9 seconds.
Sage: burns mana over 3 seconds.
Demon: burns 2400 mana.

Consume Spirit(foxform melee)
0.8 chan, 1.1 cast, 9 cooldown
Consumes 10% of max hp to deal base physical damage and 3 seconds later gain 500 MP.
Sage: 100% accuracy
demon: cooldown of 6 seconds.


Skills with usability shared by AA (purely buff/debuff)

Purge
Amplify Damage
Crush Vigor
Soul Degeneration
Chi Drain
Bewitch
Bramble
Bramble Hood
Blazing Barrier
Feral concentration
Metabolic Boost
Natures Grace
Soul Transfusion
Spark
Summersprint (worth noting, sage is a self-purify add, demon a short antistun)

Combos generally involve purging, amping, immobilising (possibly combined with bewitch) and hitting with aps. Occult ice, extreme poison, tangling mire are good offensive skills to have as well as of course will surge. For defensive purposes tree of life and faith.  On tougher targets using purge - amp - switch human - stun - ironwood - nova - switch fox - hit for a bit - bewitch - stunning blow - hit more - occult - hit more. This is sort of a stunlock but with the very long channel times and high chi requirements (just about 4 sparks) it's by no means seamless and during the first purge/amp stages it's easy to interrupt/block.

[Areashi]

I'd say, being a sin, go with a R8 set up similar to Tali's. Seriously, she has more def than most HA veno's, qq.

[Vengeous ~]

Yeah... The 1v1s we had were pretty embarassing in my part since aelena barely had to use her genie. The problem is, im so used to AA classes, whether they be HA/AA build or just pure AA, im used to them always spamming expel or belief. So i kinda stay back and only use my minor stun locks. Thats like the biggest mistake you can make.
So yeah, HA veno+stupid sin = wreck QQ
I just wanted to share that...

[VodkaFaerie]

Bumping this thread because i belive GM's destroyed a beautiful gameplay style.

[NormanM]

Dont want to sound rude (just take the as a point of view. dont want to make any drama about it), do you expect that a build made for tanking, able to DD too at 1vs1 too?? 

Originally the veno is an Arcane DD, even if you are in fox form only user, the AA build still the one you have to choose, based on all skills trees and game mechanics about the game itself. The HA/Tanking build is just an optional build that ppl made to be able to survive at pk and some 1vs1 situations. If you are a tank you cant expect to have a great damage too (You still can kill but dont expect to have similar damage to a pure AA veno).

Thats why Agatio changed the requeriment of DEF cape AKA Ascend Dragon Robe, because before that ppl could tank and DD with it without any problem, but now if you want to tank, have to sacrifice some damage to survive.

[VodkaFaerie]

 is just an optional build

it isnt optional anymore since rings patch lol. i know the AA veno has more aspects that make it better. i mained a HA veno awile back. along with a friend. who mained it for years. we got plenty of kills. you can't with a mag ring now - outdated to prefference