i got sage sin in dw full skill sage, but sage sin totaly sucks cuz of aps and some skills [most skills in sage r better] but in demon ur HH stuns one more sec and ur shadow teleport stuns 2 sec more and ur subsea stays for long time and u can combo with tm and u have 2 great debuffs for more secs than sage only think in sage is 100% better than demon that is tidal, but in demon u can use 3 spark power and kill sooooooooo fast [u migh get call noob ass and such thinks but think is u kill and they dont] for defence sage sin is better and for atk stile demon is 100% better, and if u r sage get a dex ginie so u dont get stun at all and kill every one thats peretty awsome 2
demon subsea is 8+7 secs i think 2 lazy 2 check it again, ofc u need 3 spark power freind, there isnt somethink better than 3 spark in this game for pvp, sage sins made for get no stun and hit good~ but demon sins made for kill fast as possible before they get stun, that 2 combos works sooooooooooooo badly for stealth kill [use deaden,tidal,wolf,2spark,winsheild,subsea,tm,if u got more energy use occoult ice 2] even god of pks die in 2-3 secs magin u use wood or fire dammage 2 and get wizy water buff for using that skills fast u need 2 practice a bit and let me show u some dammages with out subsea
That.......is just sad bro......... demon tidal is 50%, sage is 65%ish, so.... ya.... if sage got a 40-50% boost, i'd understand the rage.... but wow... 35% chance for effets to bypass tida and u rage? U might as well rage when someone stands at the crosswalk with you, cause that's about the same %, (at least where i live....)now MAYBE if th attack used only had a 30-50% seal chance, that'd be one thing, but to get that kinda response over something so trial is just absurd. So you got sealed, do the exact same thing 4 more times, and odds are, you're going to get sealed again at least once, ijs
sage sins are more designed for pvp, as sin you have little tank u need to pop outta stealth hit like a truck then vanish cos you cant afford to hang around. Sage path gives the spike skills to do this and skills to help avoid you gettin trapped out of stealth sins are a gank class hide,ambush and hide again and tbh it irritates other classes so ofc wen they see a sin they'll gank it bk although demon spark and aps can b godly in a 1 v 1 its also a 3s "hello im over here and i just used most of my chi" yes gear is important but common what path/class doesnt need good gear? demon tho is cheaper easier to get used to and faster at farming bt for EG a sage can be a nightmare i've come from pwi the r9 demons were no way near as scary as the r9 sages that could 2-3 shot most classes except vit built HA's
they atk slow i owned sage sin with my demon sin we were both 150 but is how u play realybut then again i find demon sin to be better then sage but that's just me
+10I only have 5 aps sin to farm vana fast, and stealth pv and fc. 5 aps is f***ing strong as hell, but you dont NEED it by any stretch of the imagination. 4.0 sparked is more than enough, and if u can pull off 3.33-4.0 base on a sage sin, ur pretty much set. And news flash peeps, if ur demon, dont go for 4.0 base aps. 3.33 tops. If you exceed 5.0, you will actually attack SLOWER, so people bragging about having 4.0 base on their demon sin or bm get a good laugh out of me. And if ur a sage sin with 3.33 base or 4.0 base, u can still use windshield lvl 1 to make it spammable, and up ur aps to 4.0-5.0 AND STILL hav the benefits of being sage. In short, even sage sins can get 4.0 easily. So yea.... >.>
Another thing, my sin is demon, an even i agree sage sins are better for pvp. I only rolled sage for PvE. Im a farmer, and farming FC and Vana is easy on my seeker, just boring lol. Rolled a demon sin for 5 aps for stealth runs. He's pro pve, and moderately good at pvp. YES this lvl 146 sin CAN kill a lvl 150 barb, but only if you do one of the following:A) Dont take me seriosuly and think that i can wail on you without killing you.B) Are too lazy, cocky, or inexperienced to think you can withstand a 5.0 demonspark+condenced thorn+mire+poison+frenzy+fire or wood pots.And even if you cant STOP me from doing that (though using occult inplace of frenzy can make it harder), u sure as hell should have the ability to stun, sleep, seal, or freeze and run, and if possible, use chi draining to delay my next spark while im incapacitated and am unable to recover chi effectively (i.e between CDs or when stunned or silenced). Between class moves, genies, and pots, there is really no reason to fall to 5 aps as long as u have a split second or two to counter. Lemme throw some moves out that can save you: Laststand, wings or grace, psychic's will, Quidproquo, soul of stunning or silencing, purge, Roar, Ribstrike, voistep, drake bash, thicket, distance shrink, leap left/right (and possibly throw in stunning shot or aim low), leap back, tiger leap, shadowteleport, absolute domain, Calmness dew (pot), sophoric wisper, bewitch, feral concentration, expel, tortoisegod, force of will, occult ice, bramble tornado, mazesteps, sage unfetter, sage bladeafinity, soultransfusion, blessing of the condor, elven alacrity, awaken (for chi), wispershot, Soulburn, holy path, innerharmony, headhunt, pious blessing, chromatic seal, seal of the gods, and sparking of course as well can easily save you. And those are only a FEW of the attacks. My point is 5.0 is strong, and i know that first hand, because i HAVE it. But i also know how easy it is to counter. Hell, Soulburn even goes a stepfurther and kills 5apsers, especially with SoV and bramble on too. If u want to pvp successfully and have the reliablity of being able to handle most classes, go sage, if u just wanna hit hard and fast OR if you want to farm or pve, go demon. Now if ur demon, you COULD be successful without aps, tho it will take alot of practice and hard work. And many people who role demon sin in the first place do it because its the easy way. Power without skill. NOW combine 5.0 and actual strategy that focuses on more than just aps can work, and in that case you can be a sucessful demon sin. My point is, any class, with any culti can be hardcore if you are willing to put enough effort into it. The question is whether you are willing to put the time and effort into the class.
I was just wondering how good are they in pvp?Since their attack lvls can get up to 80+ with buffs n stuff.
sage is better in pvp, atleast in here... the extra dmg from mastery (it's not much, but it is a boost) and better tidal along with better effects on most skills make them better. (you dont need 3 spark so which is the biggest advantage of demon) not to mention faster chi and the longer freeze (this allows you to kill with tidal/antistun+antiseal to prevent stuns/seals that would stop u from killing the freezed target). Also the extra subsea can used to combo with if u know how/when to use it, even though demon lasts longer that 8sec should be enough for a sin to kill with 50% extra dmg ... (even without sage sub effect 8sec is more then a sin should need for anything, except for wb/bm/perhaps seeker)you do lack the demon stuns and seal casting is rather slow so when you dont have tidal on be careful and try to have antistun rdy. (if u need time for tidal cd, use sleeps/freezes(and move out of range, against meele/seals) a tip is also to save the normal jump, like archers and bms can do, aim something else and jump away if u get caught in a dangerous stun/seal/freeze
Lemme clarify.Sage= skill spammers Demon= aps'ers.Sage= pro skills Demon= pro HH, and tele stunSage is for pro's who can play the class without aps, but need to donate to get the required ''luck'' for r8 add ons, and Demon is for people who don't want to use a massive coin sink on a sin, which they're gonna probably rage quit when they see others ''out dd'ing by 1%''All in all.Sage>Demon. This is coming from a Demon sin, who was too lazy to use his celestial schism. Nuff Said.KBai.
I have never been killed by a demon sin on equal terms, sage is alot better for pvp against all classes even dph and aps. Just to get this point out there, perma sparking in pk isnt pro (never sparked in 1vs1 unless its vit barb).
let me remeber that poetic, ill tiple spark with longsword and start hitting u for 11k GoF crits every 3 hits
In short: Sage: rich or lucky people that can spend gazillion ecs to get god of frenzy or people who are aps wannabes.Demon: aps spark hoarders because they aren't skilled to do any good PvP.Sage sin is not a good choice (at least to start off) here. You would either have to spend your entire life farming Ecs for atk levels and gof r8 (which is needed if you actually wanna play sage sin, not being an aps hoar.)I've played sage sins on another server. Seriously it more dependent on LUCK, even more so than seekers, and that's saying something. Yeah you get better skills as sage, so sage is definitely the best choice. The reason why demon skills were so extremely nerfed in comparison to sage sin ones, is because people in china rageqq when fishies first came out, and everyone then thought demon was best (the skills probably didn't sucked as now) but that doesn't matter, because they were all spark whores anyway.Now, you can see how many nabs rerolling sage in official when aps nerfed. I lol'd so hard (MOREMONEYFORPWICELESTIALCHISMANDR9FTW).
Indeed, which completely justifies me doing demon, and then, when I got end game gear, sage.But, aps wannabes? Have you see the damage difference in hits between a sage and a demon sin (In normal attack terms ofc)? If not, we have about a...20% increase?KBai.
Oh, and also, alot of demon sins rage about sage sin's buffs, despite being able to be better aps'ers, and in a spark to spark 1v1, they win.''So I fail because I use a skill, yet you used stealth in a 1v1, pro logic*KBai.
i think sage is better cuz of theyr op CoD and Subsea. U dont need aps to kill someone, u just need good damage.My sin is 4 aps, and i even kill a barb with lot of hp easy.just subsea, and ur done.Demon subsea isnt better cuz debuff last longer.Sage subsea makes u hit harder, and thats a pew pew. :3
+100000GoF ftw lolShort version: In short, i say start out demon, use ur aps to cut your way through PvE until u get to lvl 150, then reroll as sage for pvp with the celestial schism. If you dont like it u can give demon another chance, hell you can switch as many times as u want i believe, it just ends up being wasted money on the demon and sage skills, so i advise u make up ur mind quickly.Long version: The truth is, for me, i can kill most things with a longsword with about 1.84 aps or some shit like that. But with 50% crit chance, and 20% GoF chance, 70% of my hits do x2 damage as a seeker, and a nice 15-20% chance for a GoF crit to add x4 to boot. All in all, if i get ambushed by a demonsparking sin, i pop on my r8 wep for 81 def lvls and use blitz once their beloved occult wears off to heal myself, and even use last stand if it's not enough then. If i still need time, i can use quid, whether i have debuffs or not, sage seeker still have 2 sec seal with it. Then, once i'm ready, i just counter with a weapon change to DragonSlayer then use BA, EB, Rewind, Occult, mire, and poison and then just wail on them with an 85% chance at x2 damage while they are debuffed up the ass. Most demon aps sins crumple pretty fast after that. And even for that combo, there are 3 moves i can use in place of quid, and 7 other variations i can think of off the top of my head that are just as good, if not better than the foremeantioned combo, letting me tweak and finetune my strategy as needed. I wont deny aps is nice it's pretty strong, but you need actual SKILL incase it fails. I have a harder time killing sage sins than demon ones who triplespark, because the sage sins know their stuff. Speed and power is nice, it makes for good Dps, but so does a series of Gof crits. Pvp is is greatly affected by skill, gear, and a few other factors. But in the end, it's experience that usually determines the winner. Simply running in with one plan and goal is suicide. Unless you have at least two back up plans incase ur first fails, you may just find yourself lying in a pool of your own blood, wondering wtf just happened.
WARNING: EXTREMELY LONG POSTok, i think its time we get organized here. There have been alot of good points on here, and alot of trashing and flaming. So i'm going to separate the Useful stuff from the garbage:Demon sin pointsMixed garbage. A few valid points, but the rest is biased and personal opinion with no real evidence. (your opinion is fine, it just isnt productive i call trash because this is cut and dry)All you're doing is saying I'm right, you're wrong so suck it. Trash.... x3Trash wont even try to say otherwise.im kinda torn on this one. I really dont know what to make of it, thre seem to be valid points from both sides, but some of it dosnt make sence and others dont seem to come from personal experience on this server. So i dunno :/Mixed garbage. (with all due respect) most of it is opinion, and a one time incident, lacks useful info for the most part. But the middle like is GOLD >.>Mixed Garbage. The first line is pretty good. The last few is kinda useful, kinda garbage. And the middle is unrelated and somewhat condesending, i was very unprofessional with that like, so it's pretty much a big steaming pile of irrelevant horse****a little garbage, most useful. This post was pro sage, however it contained a considerabe amount of info on demon. The first Italicised line about my sin killing a barb isnt bad, because alot of the time, sometimes people lost to demons because they DONT take them seriously. So lemme say this once and for all. Even if you think sage is better, NEVER underestimate a demon sin, because once you do that, you make it possible for them to kill you in a heartbeat. The 3rd italicised line is kinda useful, but only because it states i do speak from experience. The middle line (2nd Italicised line), i believe is REALLY useful. It lists MANY of the moves you can use to counter aps. This actualy helps EVERYONE. It helps people know what to use against aps sins to survive. It ALSO lists what demon sins should watch out for and be careful of when sparking. The last highlighted section, italicised and bold, is what i believe the heart of the post. Because thats really what it boils down to. How hard you are willing to work to make your class successful. This applies to all classes and cultis, not just sins. I believe this was one of the better "pro demon" posts dispite technically being pro sage; since it is unbiased, informative, and not filled with hate (which is why several pro demon posts didnt make it on here >.>)Sage sin pointsOk, im sorry, i am really winded from the demon posts so i'm gonna be REALLY blunt on sage, because i cant explain it like i did on demon, it's the 2nd absurdly long post ive made, and i just dont have it in me. Im sorry if anyone if offended by this, if i need to i can come back and modify the post when i feel up to it and give an explaination to these decisions.ProductiveProductivetrashTrash. (even tho i +10 that)Mixed Garbage. (+100000 from me tho)trashMixed GarbageTrash (even tho i +10 it)Productive and useful, though short and fragmentedMixed GarbageOK i will add explainations for those evaluations for sage once i can get some R&R from all these posts i been making today. Pls dont flame or hate, im sure about 10 of you want to. In the end, what advice you decide to take is your choice not mine. If you look, I rated posts i supportd b4 negatively, and over half my posts were dissed by ME! The key to being able to successfully evaluate something, is to put ALL emotional influences aside, and just state the facts. Most people hate it, but when taken the right way, this kind of critism can be very helpful. Sometimes medicine is bitter, sometimes its sweet. Either way, it needs to be taken in order to get better. And for the love of GOD DONT QUOTE THIS POST!! This post is long enough without being repeated 10 times x3If you feel you HAVE to trash this post, you are welcome to do it just dont go overboard. If you HAVE to flame ME, please do it through private message, trust me i will read it no matter how hateful. Lets just try to avoid filling this thread with hate and bickering. Thats the whole reason i did this in the first place, so that people can see all the useful and valid posts without having to sort through garbage to find it. And honestly, if your post even made it on here (except the second one) it means i felt it had enough value to be worth meantioning, even if i didnt agree with it or labeling it negatively. Im sorry if i offended anyone, i am willing to take heat on this one because it was harsh. I just felt it had to be done. I apologize, i really do hate giving critism...
i have found this thread interesting to say the least creds to Auriel for the unenviable task they set themselves, i played a sage sin on a main pwi server, i love using skills on the toons i made an naturally choose sage though i also made a demon sin too to way up the differences, and even though i was belittled on there for daring to have a sage sin ( is it that much of a mortal sin?), i quite happily kicked ass in tws on my lil fish, but as for sage vs demon it has to come down to personal choice, people need to get off each others backs about what culti they choose for whatever class they play, its their choice and not a mistake in any way, so what if they buck the trend and try things differently, let us all try out different combinations of cultis/classes an ideas, after all if we all did the same this game would get even more tedious and boring wouldnt it?
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On the disgustingly long contrary, you seem to love giving criticism. That's Ok, I do it all the time, as it is one of my idiosyncrasy(Don't know the word? Look it up.). But damn that's a long post.
the only reason that demon sins on here are better than sage is because u cant get max aps with sage like u can on pwi, as u can get 5.0 sage/demon sins there where here without going with some heavy gear u cant even get 5.0 demon end of discussion xD
i have found this thread interesting to say the least creds to Auriel for the unenviable task they set themselves, i played a sage sin on a main pwi server, i love using skills on the toons i made an naturally choose sage though i also made a demon sin too to way up the differences, and even though i was belittled on there for daring to have a sage sin ( is it that much of a mortal sin?), i quite happily kicked ass in tws on my lil fish, but as for sage vs demon it has to come down to personal choice, people need to get off each others backs about what culti they choose for whatever class they play, its their choice and not a mistake in any way, so what if they buck the trend and try things differently, let us all try out different combinations of cultis/classes an ideas, after all if we all did the same this game would get even more tedious and boring wouldnt it?Quote from: StoneyThis is probably the smartest thing that will get posted on this topic.
This is probably the smartest thing that will get posted on this topic.
