5.0 Full Dex Sage Sin

[shadowvzs]

Actually im killing nirvana bosses Waaaaay faster with demon wolf... cuz they die in 1 spark.. aka ~ 12-13sec(since the spark execution takes some time and they normally have like 100-250k hp left)
Although that is with mire+str genie,.... i dont use ep in nirv since most is immune to it, and if they aint i'd rather use subsea

y but with another ulti u have 100% crit rate and with wolf emblem that cool.

@nexy its about this

sage sin hits harder

sage not really hit harder than demon in 1vs1 if he use autoattack and spark on boss, because the damage like this:

x = weapon damage

damage for sage = x + 8.33*x (this is the 833 dex)+0.9*x + 5*x (3rd spark) = 15.23 * x and 65% chance for crit (so 2,222 * damage)
damage for demon = x + 8.33*x (this is the 833 dex)+0.75*x + 5*x (3rd spark) = 15.08 * x and 67% chance for crit (so 2,4 * damage)

that 0.15*x difference is damn low when u tank a boss coz dont scale with 3rd spark or with damage from dex points (if u spark then its 1% damage boost & without spark 1,48% damage boost), vs +2% crit rate what allways same also bigger crit damage in demon way and since more often have crit than non crit hit, its better to demon.

its just about tanking boss, but in pvp i think too, sage better.

(whatever in normal server sage got 2* more advantage from passive coz half stat there, also boss isnt soloable like here, so there in pve need more surviviablity not like here with here 2* higher hp/def and mobs got less ressitance rate coz of +50 max level limit)


i am sage fun but i really noticed the pve easier with demon sin than with sage sin...

[Delirium]

acctually u got around 800 dex where 15 dex difference is 1.875% boost if i calculated well.

lol who talked about cloud eruption if u get 3 spark with autoattack if we talk about pve?

in pve, when lets say u going vs nirvana boss, that wolf emblem far enough so overall in short time higher dps

What does 15 dex have to do with anything when the dagger devotion is "All Dagger damage is increased by 90% of weapon damage.", 15% on the WEAPON damage is a lot more significant.

I was comparing what you said about 62 energy being a waste, you'd rather waste 3 sparks than 62 energy, I simply converted the sparks into genie energy so you could see that in a way 3 sparks is much more of a waste than 62 energy, in pvp, unless they're stupid and while immune still let you hit them.

Wolf emblem is only up half of the time on demon for 40% and sage is always up for 20%, so unless it takes less than a min to kill a nirvy boss then no, they will be exactly the same.

[hotflamie]

y but with another ulti u have 100% crit rate and with wolf emblem that cool.

Dont need 100% cr, 70% is by far enough .. WE+subsea+3spark :3

@nexy its about this
sage not really hit harder than demon in 1vs1 if he use autoattack and spark on boss, because the damage like this:

x = weapon damage

damage for sage = x + 8.33*x (this is the 833 dex)+0.9*x + 5*x (3rd spark) = 15.23 * x and 65% chance for crit (so 2,222 * damage)
damage for demon = x + 8.33*x (this is the 833 dex)+0.75*x + 5*x (3rd spark) = 15.08 * x and 67% chance for crit (so 2,4 * damage)

that 0.15*x difference is damn low when u tank a boss coz dont scale with 3rd spark or with damage from dex points (if u spark then its 1% damage boost & without spark 1,48% damage boost), vs +2% crit rate what allways same also bigger crit damage in demon way and since more often have crit than non crit hit, its better to demon.

its just about tanking boss, but in pvp i think too, sage better.

(whatever in normal server sage got 2* more advantage from passive coz half stat there, also boss isnt soloable like here, so there in pve need more surviviablity not like here with here 2* higher hp/def and mobs got less ressitance rate coz of +50 max level limit)


i am sage fun but i really noticed the pve easier with demon sin than with sage sin...

Pve Demon sin pwns sage... because of the spark.. and the extra 7sec subsea when aoe grinding.
Pvp sage sin has everything except longer stuns (but longer freeze and more immunity to ''bad'' effects. The sage mastery does difference, specially in a p-server where cr is much higher due to 45 more lvls of stats ~10% cr~200 dex. so the 2% is less effective here then they are in the official version where getting cr is harder. Suddenly spaced out and forgot was i thinking about so ill end it here

[Ninja]

attack multiplier = 1 + ( Dex / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

Sage - 1 + (833/150) + 0.9 + 0 = 7.45

Demon - 1 + (833/150) + 0.75 + 0 = 7.3

The sage attack multiplier is 0.15 higher, this is applied to initial damage, before damage reduction is applied.

The crit rate is applied the very final thing, after all other damage amplifiers and defence reductants are applied to the damage, so crit rates effect is significantly smaller.

If a base hit on a player is 50k, sage will amplify it to 372.5k, demon to 365k.

The 7.5k damage difference in the end becomes a rough 200 damage per hit difference on players, the crit rate is a 100ish damage per hit difference on players (Factoring in difference in rage damage, sage also doesnt have to reapply wolf emblem, giving then around 2-3 extra attacks). Demon has spike damage, sage damage is more constant (being a sin it spikes often enough anyway).

They both have thier weakness' and strengths, but sage does do more damage.

@Delirium 140 energy for rc

@Hotflamie while testing out r9 builds with demon/sage sin, sage is FAR better at aoe grinding, demon has longer subsea true, but the amp from subsea being 30% higher, the 5 extra attack levels and the extra earthen rift damage means that you kill the mobs far sooner, as demon your doing less damage, so you need more aoes, which sins only have two, so you spend alot of time running the mobs in circles.

The OP was simpily showing that sins could hit 5.0 as sage, this isn't really an argument about sins, please bring the thread back on topic

[shadowvzs]

What does 15 dex have to do with anything when the dagger devotion is "All Dagger damage is increased by 90% of weapon damage.", 15% on the WEAPON damage is a lot more significant.

sorry, right 15% eq damage exactly egual with 22,5 dex
and it is equipment damage overall not just weapon damage coz included rings etc, same like how dex work just a bit lower rate 1,5 dex = 1%

whatever, rc cost more, ninja have right and also why u calculated chi to sin? lol u gain for next 3rd spark before previous spark effect is over also most of sin, most of time have full chi coz inner harmony dont got too huge cooldown...... during rc i can use tanglire mire+amplify what is better

//i was confused a bit when i said 1dex = 1% eq dmg coz it is only at mage class with mag.

If a base hit on a player is 50k, sage will amplify it to 372.5k, demon to 365k.

The 7.5k damage difference in the end becomes a rough 200 damage per hit difference on players, the crit rate is a 100ish damage per hit difference on players (Factoring in difference in rage damage, sage also doesnt have to reapply wolf emblem, giving then around 2-3 extra attacks). Demon has spike damage, sage damage is more constant (being a sin it spikes often enough anyway).

1 notice, if u add 3rd spark then + 5 since 500% eq damage, and if we talk about dps then its needed (and in sage case, if have higher eq damage from buffs[like spark] then advantage lower and lower)

but since during 12 sec when u spark, sage use rc do 5*8 hit + 3*5 hit=>55 until demon do 12*5 hit 60.... so i dont got how u got more damage on sage? or u calculated only 8 sec during sage use rc?

another side calculating with crit and rage damage is also important since the crit rate (here) far above than 50% so rage damage is really needed to math formula

[Delirium]

@Ninja

Yeah you're right, not too good when it comes to genie stuff. :L

sorry, right 15% eq damage exactly egual with 22,5 dex
and it is equipment damage overall not just weapon damage coz included rings etc, same like how dex work just a bit lower rate 1,5 dex = 1%

whatever, rc cost more, ninja have right and also why u calculated chi to sin? lol u gain for next 3rd spark before previous spark effect is over also most of sin, most of time have full chi coz inner harmony dont got too huge cooldown...... during rc i can use tanglire mire+amplify what is better

//i was confused a bit when i said 1dex = 1% eq dmg coz it is only at mage class with mag.

1 notice, if u add 3rd spark then + 5 since 500% eq damage, and if we talk about dps then its needed (and in sage case, if have higher eq damage from buffs[like spark] then advantage lower and lower)

but since during 12 sec when u spark, sage use rc do 5*8 hit + 3*5 hit=>55 until demon do 12*5 hit 60.... so i dont got how u got more damage on sage? or u calculated only 8 sec during sage use rc?

another side calculating with crit and rage damage is also important since the crit rate (here) far above than 50% so rage damage is really needed to math formula

In PvE maybe but in PvP a smart player will deny you the chi, as in PvP chi/genie management means everything. Sage can spam their heavy chi skills a lot more while still being able to be 5 aps, especially with the op sage inner harmony. D:

I've explained with WE, if you can't understand why it doesn't make a difference either way unless we're DPSing under a minuet then I don't know what to say....

[shadowvzs]

@Ninja

Yeah you're right, not too good when it comes to genie stuff. :L

In PvE maybe but in PvP a smart player will deny you the chi, as in PvP chi/genie management means everything. Sage can spam their heavy chi skills a lot more while still being able to be 5 aps, especially with the op sage inner harmony. D:

I've explained with WE, if you can't understand why it doesn't make a difference either way unless we're DPSing under a minuet then I don't know what to say....

already said more times i talked about pve since in pvp u can use dph, but in pve dph <<< dps, so dps things mostly rule in pve (i dont said for pvp the dps sucks but mostly in pvp u need alot skill useage too).

[Ninja]

Yea I did factor in crit and rage damage.

Demon spark makes you hit 4.0 unless you sacrifice dex for ha peices.

12*4 = 48

8*5 + 4*2.86 = 51.44

[shadowvzs]

Yea I did factor in crit and rage damage.

Demon spark makes you hit 4.0 unless you sacrifice dex for ha peices.

12*4 = 48

8*5 + 4*2.86 = 51.44

u also added the extremity poison+another what could increase ur dmg output? coz if u calculated with genie skills, kinda weird u compared sage when he use genie and demon when he dont use genie skill

[Leader]

5.0 Sage sin > 5.0 Demon sin

[hotflamie]

5.0 Sage sin > 5.0 Demon sin

4.0 Demon sin > 5.0 Sage sin

Why be 5.0 demon sin<.<

far better way is to use control skills along with mire+wind shield+ep, if sage sin you can do freeze+antistun+subsea+ws-mire instead of demon - freeze-hh+ws-mire-ep

[shadowvzs]

5.0 Sage sin > 5.0 Demon sin

gl for make permanent 5 aps sage sin when u dps a boss then kinda 5 aps sage sin for 8s ec then 1min+ 2,86 aps vs permanent 4 aps demon

[geriatrix]

gl for make permanent 5 aps sage sin when u dps a boss then kinda 5 aps sage sin for 8s ec then 1min+ 2,86 aps vs permanent 4 aps demon

With Sage Sin I have 10% HP reduction on boss for 10 sec (Sage Rib Strike),
which from 22 mill HP boss removes 2.2 mill HP in one hit.
Then I have 30 min Wolf Emblem and don't have to spend time on rebuffing it.
Then Rising Dragon Strike recovers 180 chi instead of 150 for earlier new spark.
Then (shall I continue?)...

~~~~~

One Demon's advantages re covered with another Sage's advantages.
Strength differences are much lower than people think. You just play them differently.

[thedevilhunter]

you gave every single sage sin the best way to die fast.

[geriatrix]

you gave every single sage sin the best way to die fast.

In PvE? (shadowzs pointed several times that was talking about PvE.)

Then why I don't die?