Epic Perfect World

Poll

this poll is for the ones who have a heavy veno but cant use the skills while use a melee wep on fox form

yes
14 (28%)
no
20 (40%)
i dotn care
16 (32%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Venomancer able to use skills with meele weapons too

Hei

How to delete this message... accidentally posted :x...

Offline Feone

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I like how the vast majority in this thread has absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Have any of you actually TRIED a melee build veno? Hell, have any of you even seen a true melee build veno? (No, not HA/AA hybrids, a pure melee build.)

There are three major builds for venomancers.

One: Arcane, almost every veno goes this way. Arcane armor, lots of channel & magic, using foxform only for debuffs.

Two: Tank, Mixed HA/AA but with a lot of magic statted to keep defenses up. Deals crap damage with magic, deals crap damage with melee but is very hard to kill.

Three: Melee veno. Stats exclusively into str/dex for physical damage. Uses fox form to attack mostly and uses human form for stuns/debuffs etc. Deals almost no magic damage but deals ok-ish physical damage. Is squishier than a level 140 sin. Archers will hit 20-25k a hit on this build with their magic attacks. Firecombo 1shots it every time. Can troll sins all day long though.

Personally I think melee veno is more of a DPH than a DPS class. It's still based on debuffs though applying any sort of combo is almost impossible with the horrificly slow channeling. Being able to use fists etc is rather pointless because melee mastry only works in foxform. Allowing fists to go into foxform & cast foxform skills would be interesting to see but I still don't really see why it would be so great. I'd rather see a large chunk of channeling added to foxform so our debuffs don't run out before we finish channeling the next one. Also some mdef for melee build wouldn't hurt. Being squishy as a HA is fine but veno's have no sort of mdef boost at all and taking nonstop 20k's from any mage is a bit ridiculous. HA melee build just isn't a viable alternative right now, pitty, foxform has some interesting melee skills.




Offline ThaPinky

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That melee wep... that's actually a good idea. Venomancers have 6 fox form skills that inflict phy damage, and because phy attack on the wep is quite low, those skills make really small damage(and since venos dont use agility, most of those miss on heavy and light classes) therefore these are useless (and some waste chi).

Lets say, the wep that gets changed is a magic sword and phy attack on the wep would be increased as well as interval, accuracy % and maybe GoF(yes, GoF. this effect doesnt work with magic attacks, seeker being a really good example of that) was added to the wep. This would add more possibility to venos, instead of just purge, amp, take chi, go out from fox form and spam Venomous Scarab, Lucky Scarab, Ironwood Scarab and from time to time (when you get enough chi) nova. That gets kinda boring.

Low Physical Attack is boosted by 200% Melee Mastery (250% Sage) and Accuracy from Fox Form takes care of that, ofc there would be a weapon more specified for Melee but still within the limits of not getting boosted too much by passives.

Offline Feone

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Low Physical Attack is boosted by 200% Melee Mastery (250% Sage) and Accuracy from Fox Form takes care of that, ofc there would be a weapon more specified for Melee but still within the limits of not getting boosted too much by passives.

While it's a decent boost HA venos need to stat a huge amount of dex to actually hit something. (Similar to barbs)
This means the physical attack is ok but it has major downsides. You have to use physical rings combined with high dex to not miss all the time and foxform adds no mdef. This will put the magic def of a melee based foxform veno at about 8k, easily 2 or 3shottable by most magic classes. The total lack of channeling also means applying debuffs or even using attacks is extremely slow.

Hei

I like how the vast majority in this thread has absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Have any of you actually TRIED a melee build veno? Hell, have any of you even seen a true melee build veno? (No, not HA/AA hybrids, a pure melee build.)

There are three major builds for venomancers.

One: Arcane, almost every veno goes this way. Arcane armor, lots of channel & magic, using foxform only for debuffs.

Two: Tank, Mixed HA/AA but with a lot of magic statted to keep defenses up. Deals crap damage with magic, deals crap damage with melee but is very hard to kill.

Three: Melee veno. Stats exclusively into str/dex for physical damage. Uses fox form to attack mostly and uses human form for stuns/debuffs etc. Deals almost no magic damage but deals ok-ish physical damage. Is squishier than a level 140 sin. Archers will hit 20-25k a hit on this build with their magic attacks. Firecombo 1shots it every time. Can troll sins all day long though.

Personally I think melee veno is more of a DPH than a DPS class. It's still based on debuffs though applying any sort of combo is almost impossible with the horrificly slow channeling. Being able to use fists etc is rather pointless because melee mastry only works in foxform. Allowing fists to go into foxform & cast foxform skills would be interesting to see but I still don't really see why it would be so great. I'd rather see a large chunk of channeling added to foxform so our debuffs don't run out before we finish channeling the next one. Also some mdef for melee build wouldn't hurt. Being squishy as a HA is fine but veno's have no sort of mdef boost at all and taking nonstop 20k's from any mage is a bit ridiculous. HA melee build just isn't a viable alternative right now, pitty, foxform has some interesting melee skills.
Finally someone who thinks the same way as i do xD And fox form's got an 8second paralyse with 15 second cooldown (takes 1 chi spark), 70% accurecy reduce, 35% channeling reduce with 3sec cooldown(takes 20 chi[and dark's got 20% chance for all attacks to crit for next 5 seconds]) and thats about it... nothing huge to hold the enemy in place like other classes have :/.


Lmao, more and more people voting "no"... i guess those are all sins that cant autoattack heavy veno to death, so they get mad and vote "no". Cute.

Offline ThaPinky

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While it's a decent boost HA venos need to stat a huge amount of dex to actually hit something. (Similar to barbs)
This means the physical attack is ok but it has major downsides. You have to use physical rings combined with high dex to not miss all the time and foxform adds no mdef. This will put the magic def of a melee based foxform veno at about 8k, easily 2 or 3shottable by most magic classes. The total lack of channeling also means applying debuffs or even using attacks is extremely slow.

Can't win in every category accept it, could roll LA Veno for more accuracy and balanced resistances. Also about channeling most Fox Skills debuffs have 1,5sec Casting so not really that bad and main Fox attacks are less than 1sec Casting.

Hei

Can't win in every category accept it, could roll LA Veno for more accuracy and balanced resistances. Also about channeling most Fox Skills debuffs have 1,5sec Casting so not really that bad and main Fox attacks are less than 1sec Casting.
Cant win in every category... ironic. What about your class, seeker that you love to play so much? You have high def, HP, hit quite strong with both magic and phy attack from range. To me THAT is winning every category(and in SoW update you will get much more range[even for Rock Splitting Cleave] AND you will be able to zerk with magic attack). Plus, you don't have 6 skills on your class which are nearly useless, so you shouldn't be the one to talk.
Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 04:00 pm by Hei

Offline Feone

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Can't win in every category accept it, could roll LA Veno for more accuracy and balanced resistances. Also about channeling most Fox Skills debuffs have 1,5sec Casting so not really that bad and main Fox attacks are less than 1sec Casting.

Ahh.. How the ignorant are always the loudest voices.

Of course you can't win in every category. However with no defenses, no stuns and lower damage dealing capacity than most your statement should probably be revised to. "Can't win in any category accept it"

Statting to LA does nothing for accuracy that statting dex with HA doesn't do already. It only ensures that besides crap magic defenses you also have useless pdef.

The 1.5 second casting may not seem like much but it means a fox veno has to waste about 5-10 seconds debuffing, enough to kill the veno, and even once that's done they can only hit about 5-6 skills before  charms tick, not nearly enough to kill most classes. Even more so considering the veno has almost no defenses against being stunned etc so these long, slow combos are easily interrupted. Even if the target doesn't think of using a stun a foxform veno has little to no stunning ability so the target can just kite these attacks with ease.

 Quit saying things will be OP while knowing absolutely nothing about the class you are talking about. Try a melee veno then come back.

Oh. Did I mention that while foxform skills have interesting effects they don't add much of any damage on top of base? Meaning you are essentially using 1.5 seconds + delays between skills so about 0.5 aps dealing base damage. As a seeker you are what, 3.33 APS? Meaning you hit over 6 times faster than a veno dealing only slightly less damage per hit while having more defenses, more antistun, more stunning & more range. Explain me, which part of melee veno wins on anything here?
Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 04:07 pm by Feone

Offline Shay

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Ahh.. How the ignorant are always the loudest voices.


 Quit saying things will be OP while knowing absolutely nothing about the class you are talking about. Try a melee veno then come back.

Oh. Did I mention that while foxform skills have interesting effects they don't add much of any damage on top of base? Meaning you are essentially using 1.5 seconds + delays between skills so about 0.5 aps dealing base damage. As a seeker you are what, 3.33 APS? Meaning you hit over 6 times faster than a veno dealing only slightly less damage per hit while having more defenses, more antistun, more stunning & more range. Explain me, which part of melee veno wins on anything here?


+1

Offline Lolly

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heavy venos arent ment to NOT use their magic attacks..if you wanna go down the heavy path then you should really look into using the pataka. being a heavy veno is not about taking advantage of meele weps not sure where you heard that, but its more for survivability as any magic class going heavy would be.
So agree to this.

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Offline Feone

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I just realised I havn't actually voted on the original topic.

The actual damage the 150 melee pataka deals is quite nice and doesn't really need a change imo. I don't think another APS class is what this server needs.

Some rebalancing on the channeling & defenses (possibly a high-str requirement veno-only ring type) would do a lot towards adding this new playing style. A pure str/dex HA veno has a pretty mean bite, the problem is they are just too easily killed or warded off and their combos are too slow. It's not the base damage that needs redoing (Though GoF would be a cool addition for the melee skills I think, worth of testing.)

I suggested this before but I think a ring with +50% accuracy, -15% channel +phys attack & refine towards mdef with a high str requirement to prevent arcanes from using the channel & veno only to prevent other melee classes from using it would work well.

Offline ThaPinky

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Cant win in every category... ironic. What about your class, seeker that you love to play so much? You have high def, HP, hit quite strong with both magic and phy attack from range. To me THAT is winning every category(and in SoW update you will get much more range[even for Rock Splitting Cleave] AND you will be able to zerk with magic attack). Plus, you don't have 6 skills on your class which are nearly useless, so you shouldn't be the one to talk.

Nearly no Crowd Control (well ok with luck/APS pretty good stuns), close to no anti-stuns, no xtra "survive" skills from Genie (True Emptiness/Reflect Aura for BM/Barb or Solid Barb or Balance BM) low accuracy gain on DEX and no skills to boost it (Cept Demon Adrenaline Numbness), no "OH SHT" buttons (unless you count Last Stand) so yeah can't win in everything...

PS: we got 3 skills that are totally useless in PvP (they are X Shatter).
Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 04:39 pm by ThaPinky

Offline Feone

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I dont think we are saying seekers are OP. But by extension, if seekers are balanced then the melee veno having far less options is in need of some balancing.

Antihero

I dont think we are saying seekers are OP. But by extension, if seekers are balanced then the melee veno having far less options is in need of some balancing.

They aren't meant for melee, hence why they're a magic class and have a pet. They're balanced just fine. I think we've done enough bending over backwards to try to accommodate people with handouts and "re-balancing".

Offline SaltySupreme

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They aren't meant for melee, hence why they're a magic class and have a pet. They're balanced just fine. I think we've done enough bending over backwards to try to accommodate people with handouts and "re-balancing".

They have a fox form for a reason. If they weren't meant to be so versatile then they would only have human form. Ever heard of heavy and light armored Venos? I play a heavy Veno because I favor fox form more than human form. Light is meant to be able to interchange between the two when you need to. So no, Venos are not a magic class, because they are so versatile they should be referred to as the "surprise factor class".

Matter of fact, on Lost City my light armored Veno beat many people in duels in fox form. My HA Veno on LC managed to roflpwn a Sin. I haven't really done much dueling on an HA Veno. According to you they aren't meant to be a melee class, I call bull.
Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 09:59 pm by TheFelineLife
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