Unbalanced

[Ninja]

Anything we missed that hasn't been mentioned.

Wow Asterelle's formulas, thats going a way back o.0

[Agatio]

What I've noticed with the arcane armor is that the reduce phys damage stat that's on...6 or so pieces of the gear/gear bonus stops being effective after a certain percent.

I think you have mistaken it with +def levels, because as far I know -physical damage reduce doesn't have diminishing returns. But it caps at 50% though.

[Ninja]

Could be worth testing, It wouldnt be too hard? Make a gear set with no phys damage reduction, 10% and 20%. Get a 500-500 damage weapon, see what the hit is, then put on the 10%, see if its 90% of the original damage, and so on.

I could work out the maths if I had the time, but I really think it would be faster to just do that

Just a thought, in GV the elfs cant use the gv blessing D: Not with thier balance blessings! It doesn't make much difference though, most people dont even know you can equip it!

[Feone]

Hmm Agatio I don t think def levels cap out like that either. If I understand it right they basically work like..

First the incoming attacks attack level gets removed from your defense level, then whatever is left is what it works with.

First def lvl = -1% damage, next one -1% of what damage is left and so on.  Doesn't cap out extremely fast but in the 50+ ranges itll get quite a bit less effective.

DPH sin: Hmm, with GOF (God of Frenzy) wep 2,86 may still be quite OP. Maybe lower it to 1.86 or 2.0 at max. That way with chill they shouldn't be too horribly slow that a hit takes an eternity.  (Should they not use a skill.) If they don't get GOF that should cap it nicely.

Oh and if you're looking into alternate gear sets, take a look at HA/melee veno too =3?


I still think removing tidal to say max level 5-6 should be done anyway, I play a sin and it's simply OP at 66% sage.

[xDelete]

Where the *** to nerf sins more?! I hit 40% less alrdy, kthx...

[Feone]

Sins havn't been nerfed by 40% so that's kind of amazing? Maybe w/e you were hitting got a boost?

[xDelete]

I had every debuff on it...well that "every" means amp, hf, seeker debuff, armor crush, tangling, SS, wood pot, wolf emblem and frenzy on me...even seeker atk lvl buffs, and I was glad as *** I could hit 350k...-.-

[ruse]

I think you have mistaken it with +def levels, because as far I know -physical damage reduce doesn't have diminishing returns. But it caps at 50% though.

Formula's tested on PWI forums say otherwise. Eri's right. Attack levels are diminishing, defense levels are not. Pretty sure that I read that defense levels are factored in after every other damage reduction.

Pdef and HP have linear returns. Reduce damage stats that come from gear are factored in after your base defense. I don't think it actually caps, but when it starts/stops being effective is the question. Having it as a gear bonus might be useful, whereas having it on half the gear might not. I'll work on the formulas/have someone who's good at math do them and see to be sure, but I tested it in game when I got my reduce phys damage tome and it made like 10 damage difference. Spent like 20 minutes testing it by taking gear off etc. I generally have some sort of backup for my claims, it's not just me saying "I underpower, make OP plix." ;x

Could be worth testing, It wouldnt be too hard? Make a gear set with no phys damage reduction, 10% and 20%. Get a 500-500 damage weapon, see what the hit is, then put on the 10%, see if its 90% of the original damage, and so on.

I could work out the maths if I had the time, but I really think it would be faster to just do that

Too lazy to quote your other post, but yes. Asterelle is PWI legend. (y)
Also, yes the math is such a biiiiiitch(then again I despise math). I've been trying to figure it out without being logged on and..it didn't work. There's a lot of important variables like the level of the chars, the base def percent, the number of pieces of gear with reduce damage stats on them. *-*

Your raw physical defense = a percentage of reduce phys damage.
Reduce phys damage stats from gear are added after the damage you take from your initial reduce phys damage, they aren't combined.

Example from PWI foramz
"If you have a "raw" physical defense of 26,507 it gives 86% damage reduction.
Mob that would hit 1000, hit 140.

If you have 4 % reduce physical damage on gear you would receive
Would be something around this :
(1000 damage - 86% ) THEN - 4%.
1000 - 86% = Receive 140 damage, - 4% = Receive 134.4 actual damage
And NOT 1000 - (86% + 4%) = Receive just 100 damage"

I hope... I made sense. Tired as fak. ;c

[Feone]

If im right about def lvls they do diminish btw

Math warning:

say someone deals 1000 damage (no attack lvl)
against a target with:
X defense level they'd deal base damage*(0.99^def lvl) damage
at:
1  def lvl they'd deal 990 dmg.
5 def lvl they'd deal 951 dmg.
10 def lvl they'd deal 904 dmg.
25 def lvl they'd deal 778 dmg.
50 def lvl they'd deal 605 dmg
75 def lvl they'd deal 470 dmg
100 def lvl they'd deal 366 dmg

The first 50 def lvls are the vast majority of the reduction.


Anyway I think looking at ways to reduce the damage taken from sins is a bad idea, since their damage is insane. Better to balance the sins immunity to debuffs/stuns & look at bm or seeker damage as a balance point for the gears.

[Ninja]

Hmm Agatio I don t think def levels cap out like that either. If I understand it right they basically work like..

First the incoming attacks attack level gets removed from your defense level, then whatever is left is what it works with.

First def lvl = -1% damage, next one -1% of what damage is left and so on.  Doesn't cap out extremely fast but in the 50+ ranges itll get quite a bit less effective.

DPH sin: Hmm, with GOF (God of Frenzy) wep 2,86 may still be quite OP. Maybe lower it to 1.86 or 2.0 at max. That way with chill they shouldn't be too horribly slow that a hit takes an eternity.  (Should they not use a skill.) If they don't get GOF that should cap it nicely.

Oh and if you're looking into alternate gear sets, take a look at HA/melee veno too =3?


I still think removing tidal to say max level 5-6 should be done anyway, I play a sin and it's simply OP at 66% sage.

GoF at 2.86 would only be with MAX relentless courage.

Sins havn't been nerfed by 40% so that's kind of amazing? Maybe w/e you were hitting got a boost?

Eriphenio is right, Sins have been nerfed by 5%, the numbers are larger than pwi, because you hit higher.

@Ruse, Asterelle must have some info we dont, she really is a legend.

@Eriphenio, Defence levels DO diminish.

[ruse]

If im right about def lvls they do diminish btw

Anyway I think looking at ways to reduce the damage taken from sins is a bad idea, since their damage is insane. Better to balance the sins immunity to debuffs/stuns & look at bm or seeker damage as a balance point for the gears.

Why would you assume that there would be no attack levels, but there would be defense levels?

Also, it's a general issue, it's not just for damage from sins. I actually tested it with Silence on his BM.
The same theory also applies to magic damage taken by HA classes, but I'm not aware of reduce magic damage on their gear. Maybe one piece.

@Ninjas, all Asterelle's work/proof is on the forums.

"Conclusion:

If Attack Level > Defense Level:
damage = damage dealt * (1 + (A - D)/100)
else
damage = damage dealt / (1 + 1.2 * (D - A)/100)

Attack level exactly cancels out defense level but attack level has diminishing returns while defense level has constant returns."

Quoted from the legend.

[Ninja]

Mkay if asterelle says so i'll believe you, always thought they diminished, been ages since ive been on pwi.

[ruse]

Mkay if asterelle says so i'll believe you, always thought they diminished, been ages since ive been on pwi.

Asterelle > me. I thought so too when r9 first came out but apparently the formula was posted by PW devs somewhere when Warsoul came out. -shrug.-

[Feone]

Defense levels do diminish. by those formulas actually lol.

100 def lvl turns 1k dmg into 454 dmg by that formula while 200 def lvl turns it into 294 dmg.
on the other hand 100 attack lvl turns 1k dmg into 2k dmg, 200 atk lvl into 3k dmg. so atk lvl is constant while def lvl diminishes.

It doesnt really matter either if I assume no atk lvl, the formulas apply to the remaining atk/def lvl after they cancel eachother out.

[shadowvzs]

@Ruse, Asterelle must have some info we dont, she really is a legend.

really? why? somehow i disagree with u lol

if u talk about pw legends then maybe u can talk about ecatomb who made the fansite (and he update since it was made) far before pwi was released, watched the warsoul weapon/and every new stuff when it was released in chinese server also never acted like nerd kid, allways helpfull and kind with noobs too.

about damage formulas, here is every damage formula and def/evasion etc

http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Damage

anyway it was obviously 1% def level not 1% damage reduction, else in pwi alot people with bow is immortal (i talk about psy white voodoo+def level stones+30/30att/def lv box vs non box user)